Women in Law Firms: II

Cat, I'm so glad you wrote your last post! The lovely ladies over at Ms. JD have talked about the issue of "to ring or not to ring" before, and it's amazing to me just how stark the difference was in how you were treated across different interviews. As far as I know, none of my engaged/married female friends here took off their ring while interviewing...but I think you raise a good point about how, given that you took your ring off eventually [and took a job where you didn't initially wear your ring], you might/might not be expected to "keep up appearances" that you're somehow some young, unattached female associate. Obviously, your summer firm will probably have events where your (amazing!) S.O. will be invited...and presumably, he'll want to go to at least a couple! But hopefully, your firm will realize that your work product matters more than your relationship status.

I guess I should feel lucky not to have had to make the "ring or no ring" decision, but I definitely had a couple of my own awkward "this is only happening to me because I'm a woman" moments during the interviewing process. At one callback, a mid-level associate vented to me about how her chosen practice area meant lots of long nights and not much flexibility to start having a family right now. I appreciated her honesty, but I don't think she would have shared the same "my biological clock is ticking!" horror stories with a man.

At another callback (admittedly, in a smaller Midwestern market....so take that for what you will), three different women tried to sell me on the firm by saying that it was a great lifestyle firm, that their hours were reasonable, and that the firm was really supportive of flexible work arrangements and going part-time, even for those on a partner track. All of this was lovely to hear, of course, and they're things I care about - but they were not things that I asked about. The women seemed to just assume that as a woman, I'd want to weigh them as serious considerations. Again, I appreciated their almost "big sister" approach, but I question whether I would have received the same treatment (or had more "down to business" conversations) had I been a man...or if the two of them who met their husbands while working at the firm would have mentioned that, either.

Of course, there's a fine line to walk...I sincerely appreciate that law firms are trying to be more lifestyle-friendly in ways that will help to address some of the problems that have kept women from staying/rising to the top in the past; but I also hope that those measures are being adopted to help women and men alike to have more balanced lifestyles, and that women aren't automatically being written off as unlikely to work hard to make partner, etc. It's nice that accommodations are there should we choose to take advantage of them, but it's important to make sure that choice is ours, not theirs.

Women in Law Firms

I'm going to use a little of my day off to write a post on something I got angry about while we were still in interviewing mode: my experience of interviewing as a woman at a law firm. No, I don't mean gender-discrimination exactly. I think that firms have made great strides towards gender equality. But, I noticed that they're most interested in a specific kind of woman . . .

I am in a committed long term relationship and I (usually) wear a symbol of that on my left ring finger. Before we started interviewing, an engaged friend told me that she wasn't planning to wear her engagement ring out of an abundance of caution. I thought that was ridiculous, and didn't take off my ring . . . until I realized that not only was no one giving me call back interviews, the interview seemed effectively over after my interviewer noticed my left hand, and I was getting a lot of very probing questions about how committed I actually was to working in a firm (one gentleman even asked me if I was considering leaving the workforce at any point). So, I took off my ring, got some call back interviews, and moved on with my life.

I don't want to go too far - it's totally possible that this just happened by chance, or that I improved after my first round of interviews, etc. Still, I noticed while doing call back interviews at the firms themselves how few female associates had kids and how many of the female partners with kids had toddlers and were in their forties. I also have a friend who is visibly pregnant, and who is a law student at a different but equally "good" school - and who got no job offers at all.

I totally understand the thinking that goes into not wanting to a hire a married/engaged woman. It's probably more likely she'll leave for maternity reasons, and also possibly less likely that she'll actually come to the firm since 2-career couples have more trouble committing to one geographic area. In a tough economic climate, firms want to take no chances. But that leaves me in a tough spot this summer. What am I supposed to do for the 10 weeks I'm interning at a firm? Not wear my ring? Not mention my S.O. at all, even though we'll be living together?

All of the above made my life more difficult, but didn't make really made angry. The part where I blew up was when I found out that my male friends who are married (and some of whom have kids) had no problems at all when interviewing. Rather than being a liability, marriage was an indication of responsibility and stability.

Some Thoughts on Callbacks

Hooray for Cat being all done with callback interviews! Hooray for me only having one left!

As much as I value the chance to go visit law firms in person - to meet with partners & associates, to get a sense of the culture, and to learn more about their practice - I will be pretty happy to be done with interview-related travel after next weekend.

My desk is littered with train tickets with my name on them. I have my fill of tiny shampoo and lotion bottles squirreled away for winter. I've eaten more Auntie Anne's train station and airport pretzels than I care to admit.

And of course, we're extremely blessed to have multiple callbacks and offers to join some fabulous firms. But I think I speak for the collective of many 2L law students: we're exhausted. We're ready to be students again. Whatever that means.

Perhaps somewhat ironically, interviewing has been the best boost to my class reading completion thus far this semester. Lots of hours on the train without internet access = very little excuse not to catch up on tax reading. And some cool encounters:

A few weeks ago I was on the train up from DC, and it just so happened that Joe (that'd be Biden) was hopping the 4:00, too. I sat next to one of his Secret Service agents, who was apparently so bored that he felt a desire to attempt to stealthfully read my screen - unfortunately for him, it was plastered with relatively mind-numbing moral philosophy.

Some More Words on Interviewing

Our poster had a good point - I am, of course, very grateful to have the opportunity to do all these interviews. That does not mean, however, that the process was pleasant. I had the flu, and running all over New York to do between four and nine half-hour interviews a day was not fun. The interviewers themselves were extraordinarily varied. I met some incredibly kind and helpful people, some very direct and professional folks, and one extremely rude gentleman from a firm that shall remain nameless. I had some delicious lunches, which I couldn't really eat because I was nauseous, and met a large number of extremely nice junior associates. Despite that fact that most of the people I met were friendly, approachable, and genuinely interested in making sure that both I and they made the right decision, I think that even had I been in the best of health, the process would have been pretty miserable.

Before this week, every firm looked identical to me. I had no experience with law firms, and to be honest, very little idea of what they actually did. I still don't have a great understanding of what your archetypal New York law firm does, especially the corporate sections of it. Now, though, I see that there are actual differences between firms. One partner told me to "kick the tires a bit" while I was interviewing, and so I tried to do that. For examples, firms have different ways of assigning work to associates that seems to have a tangible impact on the associate experience. There are definite cultural differences between really large firms as compared with smaller ones. Some firms seemed more formal, while in others, no one was wearing suits. And, associates did actually say different things about how many hours they worked per week, and how happy they were with their jobs.

All in all, I hope this week will result in both some job offers, and also a better conception of how to chose between firms. I'm happy I got a chance to participate in fly-out week. However, I think I'm going to retire to bed until Monday to recover from the experience.